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Post by illeagle10 on Aug 13, 2021 2:07:31 GMT -8
Jim, Living on Long Island, having a Indy Car race at Pocono would be a dream come true. There's just no track close enough to me for a 1 day journey. For what it's worth, I was at the very 1st Cart race at Pocono raceway way back in 1971, Team Penske with Mark Donahue just blew the field away. joel Hi Joel,
I was there at the beginning too! Sat on top of my uncle's panel truck along the Long Pond straight back in 1971! Saw the Indy car races there from 1971 through 1978. Then from 1987 through 89 when Indy stopped racing at Pocono. Indy came back from 2013 and ended again in 2019. Indy car changed venues from Pocono to Nashville for 2020. I really liked Pocono because it was very laid back. You could get close to the drivers, teams and cars. It made for some very good reference pictures! Maybe one day Indycar will change their minds again!
Jim
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Post by vintagerpm on Aug 13, 2021 4:34:00 GMT -8
Bridgestone owns Firestone. Bought it in 1988.
Odd then how they didn't ever show Bridgestone Arena, home of the Nashville Predators. Possibly because the Arena was 4 blocks from the track. And NBC nolonger carries the NHL. Mike
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Post by Joel_W on Aug 13, 2021 4:49:45 GMT -8
Jim, I'm hoping that Penske and his exec board come to their senses as businessmen and realize that the Northeast is the only area of the country without a race. Pocono or even better New Hampshire (the drive is more then twice as long for me) would be great. To bad that Lime Rock Park in Conn is only 1.2 miles. IMSA runs there and the place is packed for those races.
Joel
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Post by pnance26 on Aug 13, 2021 9:32:01 GMT -8
Odd then how they didn't ever show Bridgestone Arena, home of the Nashville Predators. Possibly because the Arena was 4 blocks from the track. And NBC nolonger carries the NHL. Mike There were plenty of aerial shots of Nashville... if you look, downtown didn't much publicity at all beyond the little box of left hand corners where they turned to go back across the bridge. I would have thought the vibrant lights and signs of the area around 5th would have garnered a little more notice. Beyond the mention of one or two people, there was little mention of the musical heritage of Nashville in any of it, not even as an aside!
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Post by pnance26 on Aug 13, 2021 9:44:50 GMT -8
Jim, I'm hoping that Penske and his exec board come to their senses as businessmen and realize that the Northeast is the only area of the country without a race. Pocono or even better New Hampshire (the drive is more then twice as long for me) would be great. To bad that Lime Rock Park in Conn is only 1.2 miles. IMSA runs there and the place is packed for those races. Joel Really? Care to point out all those IndyCar races occurring on the west coast especially in the northwest? Portland has a race but that is it. There isn't a track in Washington. There are no races in the southwest or the Rockies. The Northeast is not the ONLY area of the country There were races in Alabama, St. Petersburg, Texas, Indianapolis, Detroit, Mid-Ohio, Road America, Nashville, Indy again, New Hampshire (that's the northeast, isn't it?), Portland, Monterey, Long Beach. I do agree though... the Glen, the road course in Atlanta, Sonoma, Laguna Seca, all of them were viable at one time. Why not now?
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Post by illeagle10 on Aug 13, 2021 10:10:52 GMT -8
Jim, I'm hoping that Penske and his exec board come to their senses as businessmen and realize that the Northeast is the only area of the country without a race. Pocono or even better New Hampshire (the drive is more then twice as long for me) would be great. To bad that Lime Rock Park in Conn is only 1.2 miles. IMSA runs there and the place is packed for those races. Joel Really? Care to point out all those IndyCar races occurring on the west coast especially in the northwest? Portland has a race but that is it. There isn't a track in Washington. There are no races in the southwest or the Rockies. The Northeast is not the ONLY area of the country There were races in Alabama, St. Petersburg, Texas, Indianapolis, Detroit, Mid-Ohio, Road America, Nashville, Indy again, New Hampshire (that's the northeast, isn't it?), Portland, Monterey, Long Beach. I do agree though... the Glen, the road course in Atlanta, Sonoma, Laguna Seca, all of them were viable at one time. Why not now? You mention some good tracks, but the tracks I miss are all the short ovals that Indy cars used to run on even before Pocono. There are really no short ovals that Indy cars run on anymore. Very few ovals in all when it used to be dominated by ovals originally. Tracks like Trenton, Langhorne, Milwaukee and Nazareth. My dad used to work for Miller Brother's Garage back in the 60s. He used to drive the tow truck for Miller's. I used to sit in the cab with him in the infield and watch a lot of those USAC Indy races at Langhorne and Trenton! Those were good fun races with a lot of action!
Jim
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Post by pnance26 on Aug 13, 2021 12:05:56 GMT -8
Really? Care to point out all those IndyCar races occurring on the west coast especially in the northwest? Portland has a race but that is it. There isn't a track in Washington. There are no races in the southwest or the Rockies. The Northeast is not the ONLY area of the country There were races in Alabama, St. Petersburg, Texas, Indianapolis, Detroit, Mid-Ohio, Road America, Nashville, Indy again, New Hampshire (that's the northeast, isn't it?), Portland, Monterey, Long Beach. I do agree though... the Glen, the road course in Atlanta, Sonoma, Laguna Seca, all of them were viable at one time. Why not now? You mention some good tracks, but the tracks I miss are all the short ovals that Indy cars used to run on even before Pocono. There are really no short ovals that Indy cars run on anymore. Very few ovals in all when it used to be dominated by ovals originally. Tracks like Trenton, Langhorne, Milwaukee and Nazareth. My dad used to work for Miller Brother's Garage back in the 60s. He used to drive the tow truck for Miller's. I used to sit in the cab with him in the infield and watch a lot of those USAC Indy races at Langhorne and Trenton! Those were good fun races with a lot of action!
Jim
I miss the fast oval track racing as well, Jim... road course racing has its place but so do ovals. I really loved how fast they would lap Texas and longer tracks such as Michigan. We have sacrificed the ovals for the road courses when there should be a balance!
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Post by Joel_W on Aug 14, 2021 5:44:42 GMT -8
Really? Care to point out all those IndyCar races occurring on the west coast especially in the northwest? Portland has a race but that is it. There isn't a track in Washington. There are no races in the southwest or the Rockies. The Northeast is not the ONLY area of the country There were races in Alabama, St. Petersburg, Texas, Indianapolis, Detroit, Mid-Ohio, Road America, Nashville, Indy again, New Hampshire (that's the northeast, isn't it?), Portland, Monterey, Long Beach. I do agree though... the Glen, the road course in Atlanta, Sonoma, Laguna Seca, all of them were viable at one time. Why not now? Patrick, You've actually proved my point about not having any Indy Car racing in the North East. Here's the full 2021 schedule. Indy Car covers every other section of the country but the North East. Your list included New Hamphire which was one of the 3 choices of Nashville, Pocono, and New Hampshire. Nashville won out. Mido Ohio isn't a North East track and way to far for a day's drive from Long Island. I'd prefer Watkins Glen but I'm not sure that the track meets the specs for Indy Car as it doesn't for F1 as it's only listed as a Class 2 track. As far as the west coast goes Portland is once again on the schedule, Laguna Seca, and Long Beach. So why Washington state doesn't have a race, Oregon does. And it's one great race for sure. joel
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Post by sylphide on Aug 14, 2021 11:15:45 GMT -8
I cant see Indycar ever going back to Pocono with all the driver injuries that have happened there.
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Post by illeagle10 on Aug 15, 2021 3:11:27 GMT -8
I cant see Indycar ever going back to Pocono with all the driver injuries that have happened there. No more than any other super speedway including Indy, Las Vegas, Michigan, etc. After leaving in Pocono 1989 I didn't think they would ever come back to Pocono. They claimed they left for the same reasons in 89 for what they left for now! Too dangerous! However, they did come back in 2013. The really funny thing about Pocono is that it was made for Indy cars! We did have Nazareth Speedway(1 mile oval), which was in the same area from 1987 to 2004 to soften the blow. However, Nazareth was closed after 2004 and replaced by Watkins Glen for 2005. The only Super Speedway they race at anymore is Indy and the 1 and a half mile at Texas. No short ovals, not even the traditional race after Indy at the Milwaukee Mile. As stated before Indy cars used to have a nice mix of road courses, street courses, short ovals and super speedway ovals making it a very unique series unto itself. Now it's basically a junior F1 league. Now even NASCAR is going to the road course route.
Jim
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Post by vintagerpm on Aug 15, 2021 4:55:02 GMT -8
Well, the next race is on the oval near St Louis.
The problem with most of the ovals is that the fans do not care anymore. They do not attend those races, hence they get dropped. It's what CART/Champ Car learned, and what Indy Car is relearning. The reasoning for street racing is "if the people won't come to the race, we'll bring the race to the people". Not saying it always works, but that's what is done.
Economics 101.
Mike
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Post by Joel_W on Aug 15, 2021 5:47:38 GMT -8
For the life of me, attending a street race for the main reason of watching the race is a complete waste of time. Your view of the track is very limited, and the number of large screens isn't the best either. At least with a traditional road course you always have the option of moving around with the exception of the grand stands along the pit straight. plus they usually have numerous large screens to follow the action. By far ovals lets the fans see basically the entire oval/tri-oval but hours of watching cars just turn left does get some what boring for many but certainly not the hard core fan.
What I think would be a great option both for the drivers, and fans is the ever growing number of road courses within the bigger tracks. You could easily watch the entire race from your seat, and have easy access to the vendors and bathrooms. Daytona, Indy, Texas Motor Speedway come to mind, and I'm sure that Pocono is large enough for a current type roval track. Not sure if Penske still has some stake in the ownership or not, but it does solve so many if the problems that keep fans away.
Nascar has gone to 7 road and roval tracks as that's where the attendance is growing as well as the TV ratings.
joel
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Post by illeagle10 on Aug 15, 2021 6:08:29 GMT -8
Well, the next race is on the oval near St Louis. The problem with most of the ovals is that the fans do not care anymore. They do not attend those races, hence they get dropped. It's what CART/Champ Car learned, and what Indy Car is relearning. The reasoning for street racing is "if the people won't come to the race, we'll bring the race to the people". Not saying it always works, but that's what is done. Economics 101. Mike It's not that the fans didn't care anymore, Indy Car simply moved away from their "grass roots" and fan base and to tried to go globally. It just doesn't work! You already have F1 on a global circuit, why compete? If you look at the NFL or any other major sport that has tried it, it just doesn't work. They try to look for the "big bucks" by going global and leave the fan base in the dust. Then they wonder why they can't draw.
Like you said, "take the race to the fans" and I use the word fan loosely. They are coming to the venue for a party and could care less about the race. Where I sit at Indy(start finish line), after the first ten laps "ain't" nobody sitting around me they're mostly gone! Most don't have a clue who the driver's are or what the race is about. They come as corporate guests that have never been there or as I said, come to party once a year. I feel like I'm the Indy Information line to a lot of the people sitting around me. Some do come back and their drunk out of their "gourde", passed out for rest of the race! I'm sure they look at me as some race geek! Sure I like to party that's what after the race tailgating is all about!
What really hurt Indy car racing, and I really don't want to get into an argument over it, was the split. CART/Champ Car went road racing and the IRL went oval racing. Neither did what they had been doing up till that time. They were at the height of their racing in 1995 the split came and that was the end of it. It has never reached the heights of where they were at that time. However, personally, I don't think Indy Car has learned anything. Of course that is just my simple opinion and in the whole scheme things it doesn't mean much.
Jim
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Post by Joel_W on Aug 15, 2021 6:28:21 GMT -8
Jim, All good points for sure.
the corporate block of seats helps pay the bills, so they will continue to cater to them. And yes, thanks to Tony George we ended up with the split, and the reconciliation I'm sure had a lot to do with his family finally cutting off much of the funds he gave many of the IRL teams. Now the Penske organization owns Indy and the Indy Car series. Lets see how the attempt to grow the product.
And yes, I've always agreed that our forms of racing should stay here as they never made any kind of sense in Europe. But Cart had Surfers in Australia that was a huge hit, great race, and excellent tv ratings for the series.
What should concern Indy Car is that F1 tv ratings for the US market is increasing and now we're going back to having two F1 races. Both will have packed houses.
joel
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Post by illeagle10 on Aug 15, 2021 6:41:54 GMT -8
For the life of me, attending a street race for the main reason of watching the race is a complete waste of time. Your view of the track is very limited, and the number of large screens isn't the best either. At least with a traditional road course you always have the option of moving around with the exception of the grand stands along the pit straight. plus they usually have numerous large screens to follow the action. By far ovals lets the fans see basically the entire oval/tri-oval but hours of watching cars just turn left does get some what boring for many but certainly not the hard core fan. What I think would be a great option both for the drivers, and fans is the ever growing number of road courses within the bigger tracks. You could easily watch the entire race from your seat, and have easy access to the vendors and bathrooms. Daytona, Indy, Texas Motor Speedway come to mind, and I'm sure that Pocono is large enough for a current type roval track. Not sure if Penske still has some stake in the ownership or not, but it does solve so many if the problems that keep fans away. Nascar has gone to 7 road and roval tracks as that's where the attendance is growing as well as the TV ratings. joel Hey Joel,
I agree with most of what you are saying. However, it is a gimmick with the rovals road courses for NASCAR. Just like stage racing. The luster will wear off after a while and to be honest there really isn't that great of a spectator increase. They certainly want you to believe that, but it's not. If you go to the Daytona 500 and then go to the Daytona road race very different in the amount of spectators. The same with the Indy 500 or the Brickyard 400 compared to the other races at those venues the attendance is paltry. They continue to push the "grass roots" fans away while searching for more fans and can never get ahead. When Pocono ran a full 500 mile race those stands were full at both events throughout the year. Then they shortened both races because they thought they were to long going from 500 miles to 400 miles, cutting the time of the race from nearly four hours to just under three hours. I thought it had a lot to do with TV time limits. This took away the gas mileage angle and the stamina angle to run 500 miles. Then NASCAR added the stage racing another gimmick. Now the drivers are guaranteed a rest at least twice in the race. Well guess what? The races went back to four hours long! I guess it wasn't due to TV time limits. This year they did a double header at Pocono, cutting the races to a 325 and a 350 mile races one Saturday and one Sunday. So, from two great 500 miler races at two different times of the year, to two shortened races in one weekend.
Finally Penske does not hold a stake in Pocono. The track has been owned by the Mattiolis since it's inception. Here is the history of Pocono; Some interesting points are made in the first article.
It sounds like I'm pushing for Pocono to come back and I'm not. The point is what direction is racing moving too? I think you have to look at history to understand what and why are things happening. You need to remember those things and move forward. Again, just my opinion which in the grand scheme of things means nothing!
Jim
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