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Post by Joel_W on Jan 18, 2022 6:32:33 GMT -8
JC Two simple but much needed details. Looking darn good.
joel
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Post by mustang1989 on Jan 18, 2022 18:34:18 GMT -8
It's the little details like this that seemingly go unnoticed when building but when the finished product is finally finished it adds another layer of depth to the overall picture. Great additions JC!!!
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Post by arcticwolf on Jan 19, 2022 11:02:39 GMT -8
I know the track bar is authentic, but I always wondered what you gained by it with the leaf springs?
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Post by Chris K. Hale on Jan 19, 2022 11:38:12 GMT -8
I thought all the Track Mustangs 64.5 through 70? used Frame connectors from the front frame rails to the leaf mounts? I know when I belonged to Pacific Mustang Club one member was a big shot in SAAC and they recommended them to anyone building a Track car to prevent the Uni-Body from twisting and add a ton of frame rigidity. Chris
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Post by arcticwolf on Jan 19, 2022 12:44:49 GMT -8
When it was either Gurney or Jones that tested the Bud Moore Cougar they screamed the car was twisting on them. The Moore cars got exactly what you're describing Chris, plus an extra triangulation on the roll bar I believe. I would bet if the Cougar needed it so would the Mustang, same basic frame. But that was the '68 Trans Am car, don't know before that.
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Post by afx on Jan 19, 2022 16:34:07 GMT -8
I thought all the Track Mustangs 64.5 through 70? used Frame connectors from the front frame rails to the leaf mounts? I know when I belonged to Pacific Mustang Club one member was a big shot in SAAC and they recommended them to anyone building a Track car to prevent the Uni-Body from twisting and add a ton of frame rigidity. Chris I can't produce a period photo but here is a Group II Mustang in the process of restoration by Legendary Motorcar. This under car shot you can see there are no frame connectors tying the front clip to the rear. To the best of my knowledge they were not permitted. www.legendarymotorcar.com/inventory/1966-ford-mustang-shelby-trans-am-group-ii-racecar-1165.aspxAn example of a frame connector on a Mustang.
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Post by afx on Jan 19, 2022 16:58:33 GMT -8
When it was either Gurney or Jones that tested the Bud Moore Cougar they screamed the car was twisting on them. The Moore cars got exactly what you're describing Chris, plus an extra triangulation on the roll bar I believe. I would bet if the Cougar needed it so would the Mustang, same basic frame. But that was the '68 Trans Am car, don't know before that.
Not sure about the '67 Cougars but Gurney did have the frame reinforcements on his AAR Cuda's in addition to a very elaborate roll cage structure. You can just see the x-brace in this photo. I replicated the x-brace on my Cuda T/A build.
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Post by afx on Jan 19, 2022 17:01:28 GMT -8
I know the track bar is authentic, but I always wondered what you gained by it with the leaf springs? The Panhard bar or track bar prevents lateral movement of the axle. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panhard_rod
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Post by Chris K. Hale on Jan 19, 2022 22:46:28 GMT -8
I can only speak from my own personal Street and Track adventures but, we went to the Metal store and bought U shaped steel in the size of the front clip, drilled it and then attached it to the Spring mounts, no x-bar but simple. Then like I said when I joined the Mustang club thing's got technical.... Mustangs had a problem with the rear axel rolling forward under power or wrapping up as we called it so to more firmly attach the axel a track bar or Panhard bar was used, it also stopped lateral or side to side movement. We had photos of the leaf's reversing their downward arch into a upward arch caused by High Horse power wrapping up the rear axel, Many used Slapper Type Spring Helpers ( commonly called "Traction Bars")that attached to the axel immediately moved up and hit the frame Rail eliminating the wrap up. I hope I explained it in simple term that are understandable.. We just used the stuff and beat the hell out of the Car and all its parts. Remember we got most of our tips from the track or Hot Rod/Car Craft Magazine...Chris
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Post by arcticwolf on Jan 20, 2022 4:26:46 GMT -8
A track bar is used to limit (not prevent) the lateral movement of an axle. As the bar is fixed at the chassis end and moves through an arc at the axle end, there will always be some lateral movement (simple geometry). On a coil spring vehicle, this is very handy. Anyone who has ever driven a Jeep with blown front track bar bushings can attest to how unnerving it feels to have the car going in a perfectly straight line with the hood ornament swaying from side to side. But I digress. On a coil spring rear end, the axle is located by trailing links, which control fore and aft movement but not lateral movement. On side loading such as in a corner, the axle will shift side to side. Hence the usefulness of the track bar. However, on a leaf spring setup, the only way lateral movement can occur is either through a deflection of the spring itself (very unlikely unless the spring is fiberglass, composite etc) or by having the mounting points allow movement. Simply changing to a better quality spring and/or replacing the spring shackle bushings from rubber to something better - urethane or even metal - will accomplish the same purpose without the added weight and potential geometric complications of a track bar. One other use a track bar can be put to is if you make it adjustable. Having a movable pivot point can allow you to "jack" the car, using a NASCAR term - they use a screw system to raise/lower it, but it could be hydraulic or electric (driver controlled). But I don't think they did that back in '64 on a Mustang.
Traction bars, as Chris described, are a different thing designed to prevent axle windup when transferring the rotational thrust from the tires to forward lineal thrust to the chassis. It's a weakness of a leaf spring design type. On a coil spring setup, the lower trailing links do the same job (at least on paper).
cheers guys
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Post by arcticwolf on Jan 20, 2022 4:43:11 GMT -8
If you're interested, they do reference the chassis stiffeners
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Post by afx on Jan 20, 2022 4:56:20 GMT -8
If you're interested, they do reference the chassis stiffeners
The article speaking about the prototype Cougar T/A: "This is the only Cougar that Bud put chassis stiffeners in, from the bottom of the cage running back and over the driveshaft tunnel," David said. "Allegedly, that's because at a Mid-Ohio test, both Pearson and Gurney said the car wasn't stiff enough. Now, it's a very tight car. The chassis is fantastic, and it's very easy to drive."
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Post by afx on Jan 20, 2022 15:11:11 GMT -8
Built-up the Webers from the HRM kit. Was concerned there was going to be interference with the export brace but looks like they are going to get along fine.
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Post by Oldtimer on Jan 20, 2022 15:51:39 GMT -8
If you're interested, they do reference the chassis stiffeners
The article speaking about the prototype Cougar T/A: "This is the only Cougar that Bud put chassis stiffeners in, from the bottom of the cage running back and over the driveshaft tunnel," David said. "Allegedly, that's because at a Mid-Ohio test, both Pearson and Gurney said the car wasn't stiff enough. Now, it's a very tight car. The chassis is fantastic, and it's very easy to drive." So in this context, the bar ties the bottom of the main roll bar. If memory serves me, it was a continuous piece, that was bent in the middle to form a hoop over the transmission tunnel. Tried to find some pictures, but to no avail.
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Post by arcticwolf on Jan 20, 2022 21:07:16 GMT -8
The article speaking about the prototype Cougar T/A: "This is the only Cougar that Bud put chassis stiffeners in, from the bottom of the cage running back and over the driveshaft tunnel," David said. "Allegedly, that's because at a Mid-Ohio test, both Pearson and Gurney said the car wasn't stiff enough. Now, it's a very tight car. The chassis is fantastic, and it's very easy to drive." So in this context, the bar ties the bottom of the main roll bar. If memory serves me, it was a continuous piece, that was bent in the middle to form a hoop over the transmission tunnel. Tried to find some pictures, but to no avail. Yes, something like this?
hopefully without the rust.
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