|
|
Post by dustymojave on Sept 30, 2017 0:10:13 GMT -8
I mentioned a list of other potential phantom Mopar A/Sedan race cars in my thread on the '69 'Cuda: - early Valiant and or Dodge Lancer. - 2nd Gen 64-66 Valiant - '63-66 Dart That list could have another added, and that would be the Plymouth Duster that is donating the chassis for the '69 'Cuda. I think it would be pretty cool looking. A friend in the neighborhood here has a pair of '71 Duster race cars. But his are drag racers. They look good, but I'd rather see a road racer. Then again, I sometimes think of a long list of cars that would have been theoretically eligible for A/Sedan class had they been homologated. 116" max wheelbase includes a lot of cars. And once SCCA allowed (from 1970-on until they went to Group 5 type rules) using larger than 5 liter engines de-stroked to under that 5 liter limit like the Javelins, lots of other cars "COULD HAVE BEEN" eligible. Pontiac homologated the GTO and one was raced in the day. Bob Tullius was a serious contender for the championship with his wife's '64 Tempest (GTO). That same chassis was used under a long list of GM cars, like Chevelles, Olds Cutlasses, Buicks, etc. Then there's the Nova and its brethren. There WERE a couple of 1st generation Chevy IIs that were raced in A/Sedan in the mid 60s before Trans Am. They were pretty soundly trounced by Falcons and smaller sedans, and soon disappeared from tracks. A well prepared Nova could have given the Falcons something to beat, although they were rather heavier cars when the A/Sedan rules called for cars to weigh the curb weight specified in their homologation papers. The early Mopars were not much heavier than the Fords of the same time frame. But I digress. I have 2nd and 3rd gen Novas with plans to build A/Sedans of them. I have a '64 and a '69 GTO, and a couple of Chevelles too. I have 442s and a Buick GS as well. In the Ford camp, I have a '71 Maverick and a Comet already under construction. They're getting AMT '67 Mustang chassis under them. I've thought about building a '67 Mustang notchback from an AMT fastback and a 66 notchback. I also have thoughts of a '68 Mustang GTCS A/S using an AMT '67 chassis, an AMT 68 GT500 body crossed with the roof and trunk from a '66 Notchback and using the '67 front clip. I already have an old 1968 build of a '68 Cougar. A '69 Cougar Eliminator with Boss 302 is waiting it's turn (I have a 1961 F100 [full scale] that I've owned since 1976 which has a 428 Cobra Jet engine out of a 1970 Cougar Eliminator). The '67's no phantom, but the '69 IS. A '64 Fairlane would be a candidate. Any Fairlane from 1962 through 1969, including Torinos, would be eligible. Discussion of mid size cars in A/Sedan suggests to me the idea of a phantom race class for them with maybe 360 cubic inches or possibly 6 liters (366ci) as the max engine size. I have also an SC/Rambler that I plan to build as a Jim Garner Baja race car, but if I had another it would be an A/Sedan. A Rambler American (same body) was raced in SCCA A/Sedan. Delete the hood scoop and there it is. So not a big stretch there. In fact I probably have most of this phantom list in boxes waiting. Plans weren't to build T/A cars of most of them, but maybe...  ?? Lots of roll cage fabricating and interior stripping ahead of me. |
|
|
|
Post by afx on Sept 30, 2017 2:14:07 GMT -8
Some great ideas in there. Looks like you have a lot of work to do.
|
|
|
|
Post by Patrick on Sept 30, 2017 8:33:24 GMT -8
The phantom cars are fun to build because of the freedom of choice in which direction to go. I want to build Ron Grable's yellow Dodge Dart, 68?
Patrick
|
|
|
|
Post by Oldtimer on Sept 30, 2017 21:22:16 GMT -8
|
|
|
|
Post by dustymojave on Sept 30, 2017 23:47:26 GMT -8
The phantom cars are fun to build because of the freedom of choice in which direction to go. I want to build Ron Grable's yellow Dodge Dart, 68? Patrick Well Patrick, have you read my other thread about that exact car? It actually was a '67 Dart, purchased in summer of '67 and raced in the fall and into '68. Somebody commented that it had a '68 grille in one of the pics, but that was a replacement by the time of that pic. I have other pics showing it with a '67 grille while it was being built into a race car. If you decide to build it, I suggest you start with the Revell '68 Hemi kit. It has 2 interior floor pieces, one has a back seat and provision (a big hole with a surrounding wall) for a center console, the other has a flat rear panel and a plain tunnel. It also comes with a roll bar which will serve pretty well. I'll have some more pics of progress for that thread in a day or 2. |
|
|
|
Post by dustymojave on Oct 23, 2017 23:30:47 GMT -8
Anybody else have any thoughts on this subject? Ideas of other cars to model?
Jim did pretty nicely with his 1/18 Nova. My brother had a drag/street '68 Nova with a 327 that would wheelie on the street tires. Not a road racer though. An old friend of mine had a '69 Nova with a 327in the late 70s. We talked about building it into an A/Sedan inspired street hot rod. He got some big slot mags for it with tires that required building fender flares for. Those were done and primered. But he sold it a while after he married a former girl friend of mine.
The Pro-Tour guys build a lot of medium size "Muscle cars" into road racey deals. That might provide some inspiration for this thread. Some get a little wilder than what I envision for this, but some are pretty close to the concept I have in mind and in line with what Jim posted.
I've even had thoughts of 50s shoe box cars fit into the late 60s/early 70s Trans Am rules. 49 Fords and 55 Chevies and such. The wheelbases are right. Small block V8s are a good fit.
I have ideas for a class for fat-fendered cars of the 30s and 40s as road racers. This is in part inspired by a story from a guy I worked with in the 1980s who was from the South. His dad had been one of the old school bootleggers like some who were involved in the early days of NASCAR. He told of his Trans Am inspired hot rod Camaro he had in the 70s. He tried to match the time on back roads from one place to another that his dad had set in the early 50s with a load of illegal liquor behind the front seat and in the trunk of his '37 Ford coupe. He had failed with his Camaro with no load. And he said the roads had been improved a bunch in the meanwhile. He couldn't understand how his dad did it so quick, but the story was a popular one among the local good ol' boys and not just one told by dad. They apparently considered it a sort of "official" record for the trip.
So that brings a whole new batch of possibilities. I suppose the "rules" would have to require keeping the stock suspension systems with limited modifications as were popular with hot rodders of the 40s and 50s. And vintage engines. No blowers or turbos. No a-arms unless the factory built them that way like a few GM cars of the late 30s with "knee-action" front a-arms. They didn't seem to work as well as the beam axles on leaf springs did anyway. Simple roll bars, maybe even basic roll cages, mostly stock bodies, etc. ... Might consider Halibrand mags, but no extra large wheels or tires. Lowered ride height, headers with straight pipes or lakes pipes would be OK. Deleted bumpers. Hmmm... large gas tanks OK. But not fuel cells.
|
|
|
|
Post by djflyer on Oct 24, 2017 6:07:38 GMT -8
I like the phantom idea for alot of the reasons already stated - mostly you get to choose how it gets done. Along the lines of the Nova would be a Dodge Demon/Plymouth Duster, or maybe the Volare.
For something way off the hook, how about cars that never would have been considered, like the late 70's to recent domestic front wheel drive sedans. A post on another forum of a factory stock build gave me an idea to convert one to a rwd pro-tour, but a race car is not far off. There you might use the Mopar LeBaron, Concord, or Sebring (with roof added), Ford Futura (resin body) or Taurus, or from GM the Buick Regal (promo) or Pontiac Grand Prix.
|
|
|
|
Post by Oldtimer on Oct 24, 2017 7:36:27 GMT -8
I like the phantom idea for alot of the reasons already stated - mostly you get to choose how it gets done. Along the lines of the Nova would be a Dodge Demon/Plymouth Duster, or maybe the Volare. For something way off the hook, how about cars that never would have been considered, like the late 70's to recent domestic front wheel drive sedans. A post on another forum of a factory stock build gave me an idea to convert one to a rwd pro-tour, but a race car is not far off. There you might use the Mopar LeBaron, Concord, or Sebring (with roof added), Ford Futura (resin body) or Taurus, or from GM the Buick Regal (promo) or Pontiac Grand Prix. I just obtained an 1/18 scale GMP Buick Regal, to scavenge the V6 engine for another custom I am working on. Here's a sneak peak picture.
Going to be front engine, rear wheel drive, tube frame chassis.
Anyway, I also have a Trans Am Z28 engine, and some Trans Am wheels and tires, and thought I might blend them together to see what I could come up with. Regals ran in the Kelly Series, along with an occasional IMSA GT start.
|
|
|
|
Post by dustymojave on Oct 29, 2017 2:35:50 GMT -8
I recently saw an MPC Volare/Roadrunner kit for sale on evilbay. There's a start on that. Mix it up with NASCAR parts for roll cage and such and there ya go!
4th gen Novas work too. Those got raced in Kelly and IMSA. Built like NASCAR short track cars with mag wheels.
Yes Regals DID race in the Kelly series and in IMSA GTO. In the tube frame era of those series, they were built rather like NASCAR racers, so the NASCAR kits of those would be a good start, but with wider rear tires.
In 1986 I was on the Nash Racing team with Elliot Forbes-Robinson and his Trans Am champ Buick. But that was a tube frame front engine/rear wheel drive (Ford 9") with a chassis similar to OldTimer's Camaro or a Roush Mustang. That could be done with a Revell Roush Mustang or Camaro kit chassis and body sides with a Buick body from some other source. Not that I've ever seen a Buick Somerset in 1/25/24 from any source. Hell, it's hard to find an image of one on the net...
In what I'll call the Group 5 era of Trans Am and IMSA GT racing, when the cars have tube frames and little to no factory bodywork, from 1975 on, there are LOTS of cars that could be done as phantoms as most any car with the "right" wheelbase and mass produced could be raced with a tube chassis underneath and radically flared fenders. I have a Corvette model partly finished built from a Revell drag car kit with a NASCAR rear axle and the front suspension converted to a-arms. Building also another using the same chassis from Revell's drag Beretta. The body sides for that will be from the Revell Roush Mustang.
Back in the early 70s, before SCCA or the not yet formed IMSA or FIA Group 5 allowed radically modified bodywork on a tube frame, I had the idea, probably more inspired by the Corvette GS, to build an AMT '68 GT500 with wide fenders and wheels and tires. I didn't like the way my body sides came out and aborted the project then. But years later, Curt Raitz built one that looked like a dead ringer for my idea, I believe on a Revell Roush Mustang chassis. I've thought a few times about building another.
An old race car fabricating friend of mine had for a 1st car, a 1958 Hudson Metropolitan. Most know them better under the Nash name. It was in the early 70s and he installed a small block Chevy engine, a tube front axle, narrowed Olds rear axle, and cruised Van Nuys Blvd with it. In the early 90s, he ran across another Metro he bought and was inspired to build it like a Group 5 race car. Tube chassis under neath, full roll cage, small block Chevy or possibly even a 4.3liter V6 with FI, quick change axle on coilovers and multi-link rear, tubular a-arms in front, big disc brakes, huge fender flares, etc. Still hasn't happened, though I think he still has the Metro.
|
|
|
|
Post by djflyer on Oct 29, 2017 10:01:28 GMT -8
Its not the Somerset, but I did see this 24th scale dealer promo on ebay..  |
|
|
|
Post by dustymojave on Oct 29, 2017 23:56:40 GMT -8
This is the '86 Buick Trans Am Champ of EFR:  Metro (not group 5 or other race car):  |
|
|
|
Post by Oldtimer on Nov 1, 2017 12:21:23 GMT -8
I recently saw an MPC Volare/Roadrunner kit for sale on evilbay. There's a start on that. Mix it up with NASCAR parts for roll cage and such and there ya go! 4th gen Novas work too. Those got raced in Kelly and IMSA. Built like NASCAR short track cars with mag wheels. Yes Regals DID race in the Kelly series and in IMSA GTO. In the tube frame era of those series, they were built rather like NASCAR racers, so the NASCAR kits of those would be a good start, but with wider rear tires. In 1986 I was on the Nash Racing team with Elliot Forbes-Robinson and his Trans Am champ Buick. But that was a tube frame front engine/rear wheel drive (Ford 9") with a chassis similar to OldTimer's Camaro or a Roush Mustang. That could be done with a Revell Roush Mustang or Camaro kit chassis and body sides with a Buick body from some other source. Not that I've ever seen a Buick Somerset in 1/25/24 from any source. Hell, it's hard to find an image of one on the net... In what I'll call the Group 5 era of Trans Am and IMSA GT racing, when the cars have tube frames and little to no factory bodywork, from 1975 on, there are LOTS of cars that could be done as phantoms as most any car with the "right" wheelbase and mass produced could be raced with a tube chassis underneath and radically flared fenders. I have a Corvette model partly finished built from a Revell drag car kit with a NASCAR rear axle and the front suspension converted to a-arms. Building also another using the same chassis from Revell's drag Beretta. The body sides for that will be from the Revell Roush Mustang. Back in the early 70s, before SCCA or the not yet formed IMSA or FIA Group 5 allowed radically modified bodywork on a tube frame, I had the idea, probably more inspired by the Corvette GS, to build an AMT '68 GT500 with wide fenders and wheels and tires. I didn't like the way my body sides came out and aborted the project then. But years later, Curt Raitz built one that looked like a dead ringer for my idea, I believe on a Revell Roush Mustang chassis. I've thought a few times about building another. An old race car fabricating friend of mine had for a 1st car, a 1958 Hudson Metropolitan. Most know them better under the Nash name. It was in the early 70s and he installed a small block Chevy engine, a tube front axle, narrowed Olds rear axle, and cruised Van Nuys Blvd with it. In the early 90s, he ran across another Metro he bought and was inspired to build it like a Group 5 race car. Tube chassis under neath, full roll cage, small block Chevy or possibly even a 4.3liter V6 with FI, quick change axle on coilovers and multi-link rear, tubular a-arms in front, big disc brakes, huge fender flares, etc. Still hasn't happened, though I think he still has the Metro. Working in 1/18 scale diecast, no offense, seems to be a lot more difficult than working in 1/24 plastic. Besides the fact that most of your kit-bashing stock comes from other kits, if I am custom building in diecast, I'm taking apart multiple donors.
Thought I would share some shots of the tube frame chassis that one day, hopefully, will go under the Malibu body I posted above.
The donor is from a Nascar Monte Carlo, which as most of us know, uses a truck arm rear suspension.
I'm converting it to a two bar link/coilover setup.
Shocks are scratch built.
|
|
|
|
Post by dustymojave on Nov 2, 2017 17:35:45 GMT -8
Sweet! This is what's getting the Buick V6 in it?
|
|
|
|
Post by dustymojave on Nov 2, 2017 17:58:11 GMT -8
The thread on the sale of items from the stash of Ed Erbeck made me think of an old model I have in my display case, even though it's not REALLY a phantom. Maybe a couple or 3 other threads could spin off this one, but I didn't feel like starting a new thread just to share one model. Anyway, one car that started out in the Trans Am wars like gangbusters, nearly beating the Mustangs to the championship in '67 was the Cougar. Mercury backed Bud Moore's team of Cougars with drivers Parnelli Jones and Dan Gurney along with Ed Leslie, who also drove Shelby Mustangs the same season. Ford top brass decided at the end of the '67 season that having Ford products racing against Ford products might be counter-productive sales wise. So they shut down the Cougar program. I personally disagreed then and still do. Here is an AMT '68 Cougar that I built in 1968. 289 engine, roll cage from the kit, MPC hollow tires, a fuel filler made of a square funnel made of Plastruct ABS sheet and a chrome filler cap in a hole cut in the trunk lid (missing for many years and needing replacement), header dumps made of runner rod. The original numbers (#7) were cut from a black hood (or roof panel or something) decal (don't remember which kit). But they died and sloughed off many years ago, while the decals on the rocker panels and C pillars, which came from an MPC Fast Eddie Schartmann 68 Cougar funny car kit are still fine.  |
|
|
|
Post by Oldtimer on Nov 2, 2017 18:33:40 GMT -8
Sweet! This is what's getting the Buick V6 in it? Yes, will go in the Malibu about three posts above. The engine donor will get a V8, and not sure what else, but clearly a cage, cell, etc. Bodywork is always the wildcard in diecast, so difficult to modify. I'm planning a separate thread on both the Malibu and Regal. |
|
?? Lots of roll cage fabricating and interior stripping ahead of me.
